Albert Pujols vs. Alex Rodriguez

[WilsonC]

Very subjective. I don't know what WilsonC will pull up but Defensive value according to Fangraphs states he is by far the worst defensive everyday shortstop to ever play the game. The gold gloves are quite a joke.

One thing to keep in mind is that accumulating to most negative value at something and being the worst at something are two separate things. Even if we assume the metrics are perfectly accurate, it doesn't follow that he was the worst defensive SS ever, but rather that he wasn't a very good SS but had enough positives going for him in other areas that he accumulated a lot of that negative value. Most shortstops who are mediocre to poor fielders don't have long careers at the position.

But there's something else weird going on with Jeter's defensive numbers. If you look at rWAR's defensive component, Jeter never rates that well, but you can really break his career into three chunks:
- As a young player (through age 24) he's about a -4 per year defender, including a -14 rookie season
- In a five year stretch which should be his prime, he was about a -15 per year fielder from age 25 to 29
- From age 30 and up, he's averaged about a -5

It seems odd to think that he'd be a bit below average when he's still learning, then awful starting from when his offensive game peaked, and then a bit below average again into his 30's. Note also that while his TZ anti-peak is from 1999 to 2003, by UZR he jumps up to around average in 2002 and 2003. Odd.

Or is it? It's a litle funny that his TZ ratings plummeted at exactly the same time as Knoblock started having his throwing problems, continued through the Soriano years, and then improved after Soriano left. Is it coincidence that his worst defensive years coincided with famously bad defensive second base performances? It seems a stretch.

I can't be certain, but my guess is that there's something to do with how DP's are handled that's problematic within the TZ rating if there's a weak link in the DP chain.

Outside of his anti-prime, he seems to rate a bit below average defensively, with some average seasons surrounding the anti-prime (-3 and 2 in 1997 and 1998, 0.9 to -4 in 2002 to 2004) to suggest he might well have been about average in his prime, if my theory about bad second basemen is correct. Certainly not a valid gold glover, but I'm also not sure if he's the historic defensive liability as the raw numbers suggest.

[winningbaseball]

To put things in perspective. No individual carries a team and no one player is solely responsible for what a team achieves or doesn't achieve. No individual players stats determine the success or failure of any team. But there is on outstanding fact that does not go away, Derek Jeter has helped his team to more World Series play and rings than Arod and Pujols combined, in about half the seasons. I'll stick with the best in game, with Jeter. To each their own.
I apologize for bringing Jeter into thread. Arod vs. Pujols. My last word, I select Pujols over Arod. Two rings to one.

[Old Sweater]

Hey, sorry about Jeter also. *sticks behind ear*

As far as A Rod and Pujols goes, I was implying that they could carry a team more with the stick for a short time, not all season. I assume assumption way to much when I state a point.

[Mudge]

To put things in perspective. No individual carries a team and no one player is solely responsible for what a team achieves or doesn't achieve.

Agreed

But there is on outstanding fact that does not go away, Derek Jeter has helped his team to more World Series play and rings than Arod and Pujols combined, in about half the seasons.

So did Posada.

I apologize for bringing Jeter into thread.

Why do I get the feeling you're just kidding?

[Cubs Fan]

Pujols all the way.