Greatest Catcher - 1980's

[Stars_Rangers_82]

This thread will allow you to vote for who in your opinion feel is the greatest player at his position for a particular decade. The criteria I will be using is 1,000 games played for position players, 250 games started for SP's, and 400 appearances for relief pitcher's.

Here are the candidates for the 1980's Catchers, and the poll will be closed at 2:45 CST on Monday, June 20th.


G R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB BA OBP SLG OPS
Ernie Whitt 1193 420 881 161 15 131 512 400 437 22 0.254 0.329 0.422 0.751
Jim Sundberg 1087 333 794 131 18 66 331 381 566 8 0.243 0.322 0.355 0.677
Mike Scioscia 1070 294 848 151 7 45 316 433 213 18 0.261 0.348 0.354 0.702
Tony Pena 1207 438 1146 193 22 82 472 278 519 59 0.274 0.320 0.389 0.709
Lance Parrish 1283 599 1223 212 20 225 764 405 960 17 0.256 0.314 0.451 0.765
Terry Kennedy 1272 426 1153 208 11 106 570 313 763 5 0.264 0.313 0.390 0.703
Carlton Fisk 1194 601 1104 189 16 192 660 378 652 67 0.262 0.331 0.450 0.781
Jody Davis 1070 364 875 164 11 127 489 330 709 7 0.246 0.309 0.405 0.714
Gary Carter 1312 625 1265 219 19 207 800 505 540 11 0.264 0.335 0.447 0.782
Bob Boone 1316 372 1011 158 6 53 440 351 342 19 0.244 0.302 0.323 0.625

[Mudge]

Carlton Fisk for me.

[yankeebiscuitfan]

I go with Gary Carter, former Expo.

[Mudge]

FYI: WAR (1980-1989)

Carter: 45.2
Fisk: 30.5

---------- Post added at 05:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:05 PM ----------


I go with Gary Carter, former Expo.

Should have remained an Expo. It always ticks me off that my two favorite catchers (Fisk and Carter) were unceremoniously dumped by the Red Sox and Expos respectively.

[RickD]

I am going with Gary Carter.

[yankeebiscuitfan]

FYI: WAR (1980-1989)

Carter: 45.2
Fisk: 30.5

---------- Post added at 05:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:05 PM ----------



Should have remained an Expo. It always ticks me off that my two favorite catchers (Fisk and Carter) were unceremoniously dumped by the Red Sox and Expos respectively.

This WAR thing doesn't ring a bell to me. I have read the explanation on the board, but I didn't undertand a thing of it.

[wcs71401]

I went with Gary Carter here. I love Gary Carter.

[WilsonC]

Carter and Fisk were very similar offensively for the decade; I give Carter the defensive advantage, though.

[Mickey Mental]

Carlton Fisk

[Old Sweater]

This WAR thing doesn't ring a bell to me. I have read the explanation on the board, but I didn't undertand a thing of it.


Most simple explanation, is 'wins above reserve' think AAA or AAAA player. They throw about everything you can, into the measuring pot, but all players are measured the same.

I'll go Gary Carter, he had a 100+ games over Fisk which would be very hard to make up unless you pounded the ball like Piazza.

[Mudge]

This WAR thing doesn't ring a bell to me. I have read the explanation on the board, but I didn't undertand a thing of it.

Since the purpose of playing the game is to win, WAR (wins above replacement) essentially assesses how many wins a player individually contributes to winning as compared to the average available replacement player who is available to take his place if he is out, say, due to injury. The formula is very complicated and it includes pitching, batting, baserunning, and fielding (as best they can be measured) for any individual.

So, for example, the Giants have had to find a replacement for Buster Posey. Let's imagine that Posey's replacement was the most average possible catcher there is. We'll call him Fred. Fred will fill in okay, but he will not be as productive as Buster Posey, either at the plate, behind the plate, or on the basepaths.

Now, here's the key: at the time Posey went down, his WAR was 1.6 (for 2011). Imagine that Posey had gotten injured on the last day of spring training instead of when he did. So, the Giants would have called up Fred to open the season, and he'd still be playing today.

According to WAR, the Giants would have lost out on Posey's 1.6 wins above replacement. So, instead of 39-29, the Giants' record would be 37.4 wins and 30.6 losses, just because Posey missed the whole season and Fred had to catch the whole season.

WAR: THE GOOD

It encompasses all physical aspects of the game (pitching, hitting, fielding, baserunning).
It allows us to compare pitchers against hitters.
It helps us compare players from different eras.

WAR: THE BAD

Only a genius like WilsonC can understand the formula; the rest of us have to take it on faith.
There are a number of formulas out there (FanGraphs and Baseball-Reference are the two most popular)
It cannot measure intangibles -- but then again, what really can?

[WilsonC]

That's a good summary Mudge.

The key to understanding a stat like WAR is the concept of replacement level. It's a bit of an abstract concept; there's no true replacement player. It's a concept shared by many value metrics, yet there's no single measuring stick for it like for, say, batting average.

To illustrate the theory behind replacement level, I'll use an example. Bob's a pretty good baseball player compared to most of the world. He was a good high school player, played a little college, and topped out in high A ball. Bob's son sits on the bench for his Little League team.

Now, clearly Bob is a much, much better player than his son is. Bob's closer to the level of an MLB regular than his son is to Bob's level. Which player, then, would be more valuable to an MLB team?

The answer is neither. Despite the huge gap in playing levels between the two, but since there are plenty of players better than Bob who are looking for jobs, who could be had for the MLB minimum and a bag of balls, neither player has any MLB value.

Bob's brother Sam is a better player. He's holding his own in AAA. He's probably good enough to play in MLB, but he's on the fringe. There's a dozen players of similar ability waiting for jobs, so Sam will need the right breaks to get his chance.

The concept of replacement level is an abstraction of what Sam represents. Teams actively seek to employ players noticeably better than Sam, and nobody who's noticeably worse than Sam should ever have an MLB job unless a team overestimates his ability.

The problem is that Sam doesn't exist.

There are player like our hypothetical Sam, but they come in different shapes. Some can field as well as an MLB SS, but can't hit at all. Others can hit a little, but not well enough to start at a corner position, and can't field much. How, then, do you decide what to use as a replacement player?

The answer it that it's a subjective call. This is important to realize. For example, the "Worst Defensive Player Ever" tag that you sometimes see applied to Jeter is in no small part due to this subjective element. WAR (at least those I'm familiar with) uses an MLB average defender at each position as a baseline. Jeter rates well below average according the most defensive metrics, but because of his overall ability he's had a long career. Being below average over a long time exaggerates the negative number, whereas a lesser hitter wouldn't get the same playing time.

Now, if instead you chose to use a slightly higher baseline for offense, while lowering the bar for defense (essentially, saying that instead of a freely available gloveman, your "Sam" is a freely available utility infielder who can play a little SS) then Jeter might rate around the zero-point, rather than well below it, with the tradeoff of his offense being measured against a higher bar. If you choose to apply a positional adjustment to defense, Jeter may even rate as a positive defensive player, whereas even a good defensive LF could rate poorly as an overall defensive player. You can instead apply the positional adjustment to offense, to set a different "bar" for different positions.

In a way, it comes down to perspective. If you have an average MLB hitter who's an average MLB SS, he's an above average player. Is that because he's a better hitter than the average SS, or because he's a better fielder than the average MLB position player?

WAR requires decisions on these subjective calls (one of the reasons there's multiple versions of the stat) but is ultimately balanced to an estimated winning percentage of what these "replacement level" players could do. You can adjust the components to make more sense to you (for instance, I believe B-Ref includes position as a part of offense - if it makes more sense to you as a part of defense, you can make that adjustment, and the final WAR won't change.

It can be a bit confusing, since it jumbles so many variables together. Ultimately, it's a way to summarize a player's total playing contributions. When we look at a player, we consider his hitting, his fielding, his baserunning, his position, and any number of factors to come up with an overall opinion on how good he is. WAR is a measuring stick that attempts to help put a value on that assessment.

[Mr. Baseball]

Gary Carter. One of the most well-rounded catchers in baseball history.

[Scoobean]

Gary Carter gets my vote over Lance Parrish.